Tollé général contre la nouvelle tarification du stationnement
Par Marc Migraine le mercredi 26 novembre 2008, 23:28 - vivre ensemble au Havre - Lien permanent
Je
reçois plusieurs courriels me demandant d'expliquer
les raisons qui ont inspiré l'augmentation des tarifs du stationnement,
ainsi qu'un message plus original : Il s'agit de celui d'une personne recemment
installée au Havre et qui ne comprend pas pourquoi le stationnement payant
suscite une telle opposition des havrais.
Je vais essayer de répondre à ces questions :
Pourquoi le stationnement suscite une opposition si vive dans notre ville ?
Je pense que cela remonte à la période précédant 1995 où la ville se distinguait par des indicateurs trés négatifs :
- Taux de chômage à 19,5 %
- Port claque-muré dans sa léthargie
- Le Havre sous-équipé : pas de dock café, de dock océane, de centre coty, de rénovation urbaine, de réurbanisation des friches portuaires, de nouveau conservatoire de musique, de jardins suspendus etc...
- Baisse vertigineuse de la démographie.
Le seul atout du Havre par rapport aux
autres villes françaises était son stationnement facile et gratuit
en surface.
Je me souviens trés bien avoir développé cet argument dans
les années 80 face aux détracteurs de notre ville.
J'étais fier de la gratuité du stationnement. De cette fierté
vis à vis du stationnement gratuit les havrais gardent un attachement
nostalgique.
Aujourd'hui le dynamisme insufflé par la municipalité et par le
boom du trafic maritime mondial (+10% / an pendant au moins les 10 dernières
années) permet au Havre de rejoindre les autres villes françaises
(même si le Havre aurait pu mieux profiter de l'augmentation
des échanges maritimes mondiaux : voir
Trafics conteneurs et parts de marché sur le range Nord du Havre à Hambourg
entre 1990 et 2007. )
Ce rattrapage a ses avantages (nouveaux
équipements publics, chômage à 8%, etc...) et
ses inconvénients : le stationnement payant.
Pourquoi
la mise en place du stationnement payant au Havre ?
Plusieurs raisons :
- Accessibilité au commerce de proximité
: La mairie a la charge de rendre accessible le commerce de proximité
du centre-ville comme l'a dit
Jean-Luc PINSON à la CCI du Havre, le mercredi 12 novembre, lors de
sa conférence intitulée : comment dynamiser le commerce de proximité.
Or il est apparu de réels problèmes pour se garer dans le centre-ville
du Havre. Le stationnement payant permet le renouvellement des visiteurs dans
le centre-ville et évite les voitures ventouses.
- Contribution des non-havrais : Le stationnement
payant permet aux habitants des communes alentours, de participer au financement
de l'entretien de la voirie qu'ils utilisent, par exemple, en travaillant
au Havre.
- Contribution à l'Ecologie : La
voiture est responsable d'1/3 des émissions de CO2 et d'une bonne partie
de la pollution au Havre et dans le monde ; d'ailleurs le capteur d'air normand
situé dans une rue passante du centre-ville du Havre est un des capteurs
qui relève le plus de pollution sur l'agglomération. Une politique
visant à réduire la circulation automobile est louable.
- Meilleure utilisation des transports en commun.
La collectivité finance 2/3 du coût des transports publics. C'est
de la bonne gestion que d'encourager nos concitoyens à utiliser un
service largement financé par la collectivité.
- Les utilisateurs mis à contribution.
Est-il normal que le piéton, le cycliste, l'usager des transports publics
financent l'automobiliste. Il le fait déjà trés largement
à travers ses impôts mais l'automobiliste ne doit-il pas participer
un peu plus que les autres ?
- Pourquoi pas le Havre ? Pourquoi Le Havre devrait-elle s'isoler d'une tendance (l'augmentation du stationnement payant) présente dans toutes les villes quelle que soit la couleur politique de leur municipalité.
Pourquoi cette nouvelle tarification ?
- La difficulté à se garer
se fait plus sentir aujourd'hui qu'il y a 10 ans, Ainsi les raisons évoquées
ci-dessus sont plus vraies aujourd'hui qu'il y a 10 ans.
L'élargissement de l'amplitude horaire jusqu'à 18h30 répond plus particuliérement au besoin d'accessibilité du commerce de proximité du centre-ville.
En effet les commerçants ont souhaité cet élargissement car beaucoup de personnes habitant le centre ville rentraient de leur travail à 17h, et rendaient difficile la possibilité pour d'autres de venir faire leurs courses en ville.
- Une meilleure utilisation des parking souterrains
et aériens. Le tarif des parkings souterrains et aériens
n'augmente pas et est inférieur au prix du stationnement en surface.
On peut esperer mieux remplir les parking souterrains du Havre qui ne sont
pas suffisamment utilisés (parking niemeyer par exemple). Là
aussi c'est de la bonne gestion que d'inciter nos concitoyens à utiliser
des équipements trés déficitaires et financés
par la Mairie.
- Une hausse qui peut cacher une baisse pour ceux
qui étudieront attentivement les nouveaux tarifs :
- Possibilité de stationner 30 ou 60 minutes en zone verte au même tarif que la zone orange.
- Diminution du prix de l'abonnement résidant mensuel de 16 à 10 euros.
- Carte prépayée vendue 30 euros au lieu de 40 euros fractionnable en quarts d'heure. (10 euros offerts = 8 heures de stationnement c'est-à-dire 32 quarts d'heure)
- Parkings sous-terrains et aériens : première demi heure gratuite.
- Le prix de l'abonnement parking sous-terrain et aérien est inchangé.
(Le prix horaire du stationnement dans les parkings sous-terrains et aériens
est inférieur aux parkings de surface).
- Une tarification qui reste inférieure à celle pratiquée dans les autres villes de France :
|
Tarification de courte durée
|
|||
|
Tarif Actuel |
Tarif
proposé |
ville de comparaison |
|
|
30 mn
|
0,50 €
|
0,60 €
|
0,50 €
|
|
1h
|
1 €
|
1,20 €
|
1,50 €
|
|
1h 30
|
1,70 €
|
2 €
|
2,50 €
|
|
2h
|
2,30€
|
2,80 €
|
3,50 €
|
|
Tarification de moyenne et longue durée
|
|||
|
tarif
actuel |
Tarif
proposé |
Ville de comparaison
ROUEN |
|
|
1/2 Journée
|
1 €
|
2 €
|
2,90 €
|
|
1 journée
|
2 €
|
4 €
|
5,80 €
|
J'espère que vous comprendrez ici les raisons
qui motivent la municipalité à cette révision
de la tarification que beaucoup d'entre vous considèrent injuste. Certains
trouveront le moyen d'attenuer cette hausse en jouant sur les avantages des
nouveaux tarifs.
Bon courage,
Commentaires
Cette argumentation est irrecevable.
1) Le prix des parkings souterrains ou en surface augmentent aussi, contrairement à ce qui est ici prétendu, si du moins il faut en croire la presse havraise du 2O novembre 2008.
2) l'argument transports en commun est de la pure hypocrisie (Je les prends régulièrement; je sais donc de quoi je parle): tarifs élevés (quoiqu'on en dise), cadencement insuffisant, problèmes de retard (ou parfois de bus passant au contraire à l'avance !) sont fréquents et ne donnent pas envie de les emprunter. Et le tramway ne sera pas là avant 2012.
3) l'argument "commerçants" ne tient pas non plus la route. Outre (toujours s'il faut en croire la presse havraise) que certains commerçants ne sont pas d'accord, le réflexe logique du consommateur va être d'aller faire ses courses aux hypermarchés avoisinants qui ont des galeries commerciales et des parkings gratuits.
4)Des parkings payants pour suivre le dynamisme de la ville ? Allons-donc ! Le Havre est une ville qui a toujours autant de retard. Les Docks Océane, en particulier, sont une salle très mal concue, que les gens n'ont pas envie de fréquenter (on n'a qu'à voir le nombre d'annulations de spectacles). Il faudrait un Zénith comme il y en a dans toutes les villes d'importance comparable. Tout le reste est à l'avenant. On construit, d'accord, mais sans aucune réflexion. Le commerce, puisqu'il en était question, en est un autre bon exemple.Les boutiques ferment dans tous les quartiers, y compris au centre et à Coty. Des enseignes comme Naf Naf (qu'on trouve à Pont-Audemer !), Phildar et la Compagnie des Petits (qu'on trouve à Mende !) se sont retirés du Havre où Zara ne veut pas s'implanter... Quand à Ikéa, il a choisi de s'installer à Rouen et à Caen. Pas au Havre! Les loisirs, le cinéma ? Le Havre a déjà moins de salles que les pas tout à fait 80 000 habitants de La Rochelle. Après la fermeture programmée de l'Eden et des Clubs, la ville aura moins de salles que les 60 000 habitants de Lorient ! Il serait temps de revenir sur terre et d'arrêter de raconter n'importe quoi...
Cette argumentation est irrecevable.
1) Le prix des parkings souterrains ou en surface augmentent aussi, contrairement à ce qui est ici prétendu, si du moins il faut en croire la presse havraise du 2O novembre 2008.
2) l'argument transports en commun est de la pure hypocrisie (Je les prends régulièrement; je sais donc de quoi je parle): tarifs élevés (quoiqu'on en dise), cadencement insuffisant, problèmes de retard (ou parfois de bus passant au contraire à l'avance !) sont fréquents et ne donnent pas envie de les emprunter. Et le tramway ne sera pas là avant 2012.
3) l'argument "commerçants" ne tient pas non plus la route. Outre (toujours s'il faut en croire la presse havraise) que certains commerçants ne sont pas d'accord, le réflexe logique du consommateur va être d'aller faire ses courses aux hypermarchés avoisinants qui ont des galeries commerciales et des parkings gratuits.
4)Des parkings payants pour suivre le dynamisme de la ville ? Allons-donc ! Le Havre est une ville qui a toujours autant de retard. Les Docks Océane, en particulier, sont une salle très mal concue, que les gens n'ont pas envie de fréquenter (on n'a qu'à voir le nombre d'annulations de spectacles). Il faudrait un Zénith comme il y en a dans toutes les villes d'importance comparable. Tout le reste est à l'avenant. On construit, d'accord, mais sans aucune réflexion. Le commerce, puisqu'il en était question, en est un autre bon exemple.Les boutiques ferment dans tous les quartiers, y compris au centre et à Coty. Des enseignes comme Naf Naf (qu'on trouve à Pont-Audemer !), Phildar et la Compagnie des Petits (qu'on trouve à Mende !) se sont retirés du Havre où Zara ne veut pas s'implanter... Quand à Ikéa, il a choisi de s'installer à Rouen et à Caen. Pas au Havre! Les loisirs, le cinéma ? Le Havre a déjà moins de salles que les pas tout à fait 80 000 habitants de La Rochelle. Après la fermeture programmée de l'Eden et des Clubs, la ville aura moins de salles que les 60 000 habitants de Lorient ! Il serait temps de revenir sur terre et d'arrêter de raconter n'importe quoi...
Monsieur Migraine, la ville du Havre a énormément évolué, ce qui réjouit la plupart des havrais. Cependant, en cette période de morosité économique nationale, les inquiétudes que cette crise génère...,je pense, qu'un choix aurait dû être fait entre augmentation du stationnement ou de la fiscalité locale. Au moins une des deux mesures aurait dû être différée dans le temps, voire abandonnée pour 2009, pour des raisons psychologiques. Même, si le stationnement havrais reste d'un prix modique par rapport à des villes de taille comparable, la réputation de ces mêmes villes, (même si la mauvaise réputation du Havre est anormalement amplifiée), n'est pas la même que celle du Havre. Le Havre, demeure une ville dont l'évocation du nom à l'extérieur fait frémir. Ce contexte ne peut être laissé de côté pour la prise de décision. Par ailleurs, la France a habitué ses citoyens à l'idée que tous les services au public pouvaient être gratuits. Depuis quelques années, les médiocres tentatives de tour de vis pour essayer de maîtriser l'énorme déficit du pays (qui finira par faire mal un jour, dommage que personne ne s'en préocupe) sont ressenties comme une terrible frustation de la part des usagers.
Monsieur Migraine, la ville du Havre a énormément évolué, ce qui réjouit la plupart des havrais. Cependant, en cette période de morosité économique nationale, les inquiétudes que cette crise génère...,je pense, qu'un choix aurait dû être fait entre augmentation du stationnement ou de la fiscalité locale. Au moins une des deux mesures aurait dû être différée dans le temps, voire abandonnée pour 2009, pour des raisons psychologiques. Même, si le stationnement havrais reste d'un prix modique par rapport à des villes de taille comparable, la réputation de ces mêmes villes, (même si la mauvaise réputation du Havre est anormalement amplifiée), n'est pas la même que celle du Havre. Le Havre, demeure une ville dont l'évocation du nom à l'extérieur fait frémir. Ce contexte ne peut être laissé de côté pour la prise de décision. Par ailleurs, la France a habitué ses citoyens à l'idée que tous les services au public pouvaient être gratuits. Depuis quelques années, les médiocres tentatives de tour de vis pour essayer de maîtriser l'énorme déficit du pays (qui finira par faire mal un jour, dommage que personne ne s'en préocupe) sont ressenties comme une terrible frustation de la part des usagers.
Tout le monde le reconnaît, M. Migraine, depuis 1995, le Have a avancé. Je ne sais pas si la ville a "rattrapé" (qui ?), si elle est toujours en retard (par rapport à quoi ?). Il y a beaucoup de choses nouvelles dont les Havrais se réjouissent. On est d'accord.
Sur le plan économique, et pour répondre à Diogène (dont la plume/le clavier ressemble furieusement à celle de Dion Bouton), entre 1999 (puisque Diogène est arrivé en 99 au Havre) et 2007 la zone d'emploi du Havre a connu une création nette de 11760 emplois salariés, soit + 13,15 %(sources Unedic). C'est moins bien que la Rochelle ou Nantes, mais un peu mieux que Caen-Bayeux, Dijon, Reims, Angers, Clermont, Amiens, Nancy, Le Mans (toutes entre 9,5% et 12,5%). C'est mieux que Rouen ou Limoges(+8,8%), beaucoup mieux que Dunkerque (6,3%), Mulhouse (2,43%) ou Evreux (1,65%).
Mais là n'est pas le sujet. Le sujet, c'est le stationnement !!!
- Pouvez-vous nous dire, M. Migraine, la part que représentent les recettes de stationnement dans le budget de la ville ? L'argument de la contribution des non havrais ne tient pas. Il vaut mieux les attirer dans la ville, que de les cantonner à La Lezarde en les ennuyant avec une contribution qui ne pèse rien.
- L'accessibilité du commerce de centre-ville ? Pour 1 "voiture ventouse" à l'hectare, vous freinez combien de chalands qui sortent du travail entre17h00 et 19h00, en les désincitant de la sorte ?
- Contribution à l'écologie : je n'imaginais pas qu'une voiture, stationnée gratuitement, polluait. Mais alors, il faut tout de suite le signaler à la mairie de Paris, qui se fourvoie en rendant le stationnement résidentiel gratuit les jours de pics de pollution.
- Utilisation des transports en commun : Comment imagine-t-on, dans plusieurs villes de France, développer la fréquentation des transports en commun en gênant les voitures ? Je pense qu'il vaut mieux faire porter les efforts sur les performances de ces transports en commun. M. Migraine, quand votre enfant a des notes en dessous de la moyenne de sa classe, vous demandez au prof de faire baisser cette moyenne, ou bien vous dites à votre fils ou fille de travailler davantage pour avoir de meilleurs notes ?
- La difficulté de se garer en ville après 17h00 ? Vous nous faites marcher ?! Ce n'est pas vraiment difficile. Peut-être davantage qu'il y a 10 ans. Mais là, je crois que c'est surtout parce qu'on a supprimé des places.
- Pourquoi pas le Havre ? Mais parce que le Havre n'a aucun besoin d'imiter les autres villes de France, qui se ressemblent trop. Au contraire. Si elle veut attirer, elle a tout à gagner en cultivant ses différences.
Et moi qui vis en centre-ville, je vois midi à ma porte : vos hausses de tarifs cachent peut-être des baisses, mais celles-ci sont en trompe l'œil : la zone verte payante le samedi va m'obliger, si je comprends bien, à dépenser au moins 120 Euros par an juste parce que je ne travaille pas le samedi.
Tout le monde le reconnaît, M. Migraine, depuis 1995, le Have a avancé. Je ne sais pas si la ville a "rattrapé" (qui ?), si elle est toujours en retard (par rapport à quoi ?). Il y a beaucoup de choses nouvelles dont les Havrais se réjouissent. On est d'accord.
Sur le plan économique, et pour répondre à Diogène (dont la plume/le clavier ressemble furieusement à celle de Dion Bouton), entre 1999 (puisque Diogène est arrivé en 99 au Havre) et 2007 la zone d'emploi du Havre a connu une création nette de 11760 emplois salariés, soit + 13,15 %(sources Unedic). C'est moins bien que la Rochelle ou Nantes, mais un peu mieux que Caen-Bayeux, Dijon, Reims, Angers, Clermont, Amiens, Nancy, Le Mans (toutes entre 9,5% et 12,5%). C'est mieux que Rouen ou Limoges(+8,8%), beaucoup mieux que Dunkerque (6,3%), Mulhouse (2,43%) ou Evreux (1,65%).
Mais là n'est pas le sujet. Le sujet, c'est le stationnement !!!
- Pouvez-vous nous dire, M. Migraine, la part que représentent les recettes de stationnement dans le budget de la ville ? L'argument de la contribution des non havrais ne tient pas. Il vaut mieux les attirer dans la ville, que de les cantonner à La Lezarde en les ennuyant avec une contribution qui ne pèse rien.
- L'accessibilité du commerce de centre-ville ? Pour 1 "voiture ventouse" à l'hectare, vous freinez combien de chalands qui sortent du travail entre17h00 et 19h00, en les désincitant de la sorte ?
- Contribution à l'écologie : je n'imaginais pas qu'une voiture, stationnée gratuitement, polluait. Mais alors, il faut tout de suite le signaler à la mairie de Paris, qui se fourvoie en rendant le stationnement résidentiel gratuit les jours de pics de pollution.
- Utilisation des transports en commun : Comment imagine-t-on, dans plusieurs villes de France, développer la fréquentation des transports en commun en gênant les voitures ? Je pense qu'il vaut mieux faire porter les efforts sur les performances de ces transports en commun. M. Migraine, quand votre enfant a des notes en dessous de la moyenne de sa classe, vous demandez au prof de faire baisser cette moyenne, ou bien vous dites à votre fils ou fille de travailler davantage pour avoir de meilleurs notes ?
- La difficulté de se garer en ville après 17h00 ? Vous nous faites marcher ?! Ce n'est pas vraiment difficile. Peut-être davantage qu'il y a 10 ans. Mais là, je crois que c'est surtout parce qu'on a supprimé des places.
- Pourquoi pas le Havre ? Mais parce que le Havre n'a aucun besoin d'imiter les autres villes de France, qui se ressemblent trop. Au contraire. Si elle veut attirer, elle a tout à gagner en cultivant ses différences.
Et moi qui vis en centre-ville, je vois midi à ma porte : vos hausses de tarifs cachent peut-être des baisses, mais celles-ci sont en trompe l'œil : la zone verte payante le samedi va m'obliger, si je comprends bien, à dépenser au moins 120 Euros par an juste parce que je ne travaille pas le samedi.
Bonjour,
Pour répondre à ces 3 commentaires je n'ai rien à dire de plus que ce que j'ai exprimé dans mon billet initial.
Vos arguments se tiennent.
Tout sujet de discussion est un peu comme une statue : lorsque que vous regardez une statue elle apparaitra différente selon l'angle que prend votre regard et selon la lumière du jour. Toutefois je voudrais vous exprimer toute ma reconnaissance et ma sympathie car la qualité de votre argumentation, la longueur de vos réponses montrent le sérieux avec lequel vous écrivez sur mon blog.
Vos réponses m'enrichissent - merci.
Bien cordialement,
Marc Migraine
Bonjour,
Pour répondre à ces 3 commentaires je n'ai rien à dire de plus que ce que j'ai exprimé dans mon billet initial.
Vos arguments se tiennent.
Tout sujet de discussion est un peu comme une statue : lorsque que vous regardez une statue elle apparaitra différente selon l'angle que prend votre regard et selon la lumière du jour. Toutefois je voudrais vous exprimer toute ma reconnaissance et ma sympathie car la qualité de votre argumentation, la longueur de vos réponses montrent le sérieux avec lequel vous écrivez sur mon blog.
Vos réponses m'enrichissent - merci.
Bien cordialement,
Marc Migraine
Je reviens sur cette question.
Finalement, on ne sait toujours pas ce que pèse ce changement de tarif de stationnement dans le budget de la ville.
L'argument principal avancé par la ville est la satisfaction d'une demande des commerçants. Or, je n'ai lu nulle part la faveur de ceux-ci quant-à cette nouvelle tarification.
En revanche, si il s'agit d'éviter que les voitures des résidents gènent celles des clients des commerçes de centre-ville entre 17h00 et 19h00, alors pourquoi diminuer l'abonnement des résidents ? C'est incohérent.
Vraiment, la conclusion qui s'impose est qu'en réalité, M. Rufenacht à lancé cette mesure, pour la retirer à Noël, comme cadeau à ses administrés !!!
Je reviens sur cette question.
Finalement, on ne sait toujours pas ce que pèse ce changement de tarif de stationnement dans le budget de la ville.
L'argument principal avancé par la ville est la satisfaction d'une demande des commerçants. Or, je n'ai lu nulle part la faveur de ceux-ci quant-à cette nouvelle tarification.
En revanche, si il s'agit d'éviter que les voitures des résidents gènent celles des clients des commerçes de centre-ville entre 17h00 et 19h00, alors pourquoi diminuer l'abonnement des résidents ? C'est incohérent.
Vraiment, la conclusion qui s'impose est qu'en réalité, M. Rufenacht à lancé cette mesure, pour la retirer à Noël, comme cadeau à ses administrés !!!
Antoine Rufenacht aujourd'hui au conseil municipal annonce que le déficit (cout moins recette des parkings souterrains) des parcs d'ouvrage est de 4,5 M d'€ en 2008 et que les recettes du stationnement payant de surface sont de 1,575 M d'€ soit une insuffisance de 3 M d'€.Ainsi les contribuables ont financé 3 M. d'€.
Antoine Rufenacht considère qu'un ré-équilibrage est nécessaire et que les automobilistes doivent participer au financement de la voirie et des parcs de stationnement d'autant plus que beaucoup d'automobilistes n'habitent pas au Havre et ne participent pas, à travers leurs impôts, au financement des équipements souterrain de stationnement.
Marc Migraine
Antoine Rufenacht aujourd'hui au conseil municipal annonce que le déficit (cout moins recette des parkings souterrains) des parcs d'ouvrage est de 4,5 M d'€ en 2008 et que les recettes du stationnement payant de surface sont de 1,575 M d'€ soit une insuffisance de 3 M d'€.Ainsi les contribuables ont financé 3 M. d'€.
Antoine Rufenacht considère qu'un ré-équilibrage est nécessaire et que les automobilistes doivent participer au financement de la voirie et des parcs de stationnement d'autant plus que beaucoup d'automobilistes n'habitent pas au Havre et ne participent pas, à travers leurs impôts, au financement des équipements souterrain de stationnement.
Marc Migraine
De tous les arguments en faveur de la hausse des tarifs de stationnement, celui-ci à mon sens est le seul qui vaille. AR aurait pu se contenter de communiquer là dessus.
Cependant ! cependant, 4,5 M€ annuels de charges de fonctionnement des parkings souterrains, cela me paraît beaucoup. Même si je sais qu'il faut les entretenir, les ventiler, les éclairer, payer les gardiens, etc ...
De tous les arguments en faveur de la hausse des tarifs de stationnement, celui-ci à mon sens est le seul qui vaille. AR aurait pu se contenter de communiquer là dessus.
Cependant ! cependant, 4,5 M€ annuels de charges de fonctionnement des parkings souterrains, cela me paraît beaucoup. Même si je sais qu'il faut les entretenir, les ventiler, les éclairer, payer les gardiens, etc ...
Je suis assez d'accord avec Antoine, il faut arrêter l'hypocrisie en parlant de rendre le système meilleur pour les administrés. Tout est toujours une question d'argent et la principale motivation de la hausse du prix du stationnement est le rééquilibrage des dépenses de voiries. M.Migraine, je pense que vous devriez jouer la carte de l'honnêteté tout comme M.Rufenacht plutôt que de sous estimer les capacités des Havrais à comprendre des problèmes de finances publiques.
Je suis assez d'accord avec Antoine, il faut arrêter l'hypocrisie en parlant de rendre le système meilleur pour les administrés. Tout est toujours une question d'argent et la principale motivation de la hausse du prix du stationnement est le rééquilibrage des dépenses de voiries. M.Migraine, je pense que vous devriez jouer la carte de l'honnêteté tout comme M.Rufenacht plutôt que de sous estimer les capacités des Havrais à comprendre des problèmes de finances publiques.
je suis commerçante et je n'ai jamais demande le stationnement soit payant. C'est plutôt un frein pour le commerce
les consommateurs vont fuir vers les grandes surfaces ou les parkings sont gratuits merci le maire encore un impôt injuste
je suis commerçante et je n'ai jamais demande le stationnement soit payant. C'est plutôt un frein pour le commerce
les consommateurs vont fuir vers les grandes surfaces ou les parkings sont gratuits merci le maire encore un impôt injuste
lu dans la presse : Quarante nouvelles rues situées dans les quartiers à l'est de l'Espace Coty seront payantes à partir du 2 mars. Au total, cette extension représente 2 000 places de stationnement. G Pierre directeur adjoint des services de la ville du Havre et F Fortere directeur de la voirie justifient cette extension, la dernière promet G Pierre '' En 2005, nous n'avions pas traité toutes les zones, seulement une voie sur deux. L'expérience n'est pas très probante''. Les résidants sont avertis par courrier de ce changement, ils peuvent souscrire un abonnement au tarif préférentiel de 10 euros par mois.
lu dans la presse : Quarante nouvelles rues situées dans les quartiers à l'est de l'Espace Coty seront payantes à partir du 2 mars. Au total, cette extension représente 2 000 places de stationnement. G Pierre directeur adjoint des services de la ville du Havre et F Fortere directeur de la voirie justifient cette extension, la dernière promet G Pierre '' En 2005, nous n'avions pas traité toutes les zones, seulement une voie sur deux. L'expérience n'est pas très probante''. Les résidants sont avertis par courrier de ce changement, ils peuvent souscrire un abonnement au tarif préférentiel de 10 euros par mois.
lu dans la presse : Quarante nouvelles rues situées dans les quartiers à l'est de l'Espace Coty seront payantes à partir du 2 mars. Au total, cette extension représente 2 000 places de stationnement. G Pierre directeur adjoint des services de la ville du Havre et F Fortere directeur de la voirie justifient cette extension, la dernière promet G Pierre '' En 2005, nous n'avions pas traité toutes les zones, seulement une voie sur deux. L'expérience n'est pas très probante''. Les résidants sont avertis par courrier de ce changement, ils peuvent souscrire un abonnement au tarif préférentiel de 10 euros par mois.
lu dans la presse : Quarante nouvelles rues situées dans les quartiers à l'est de l'Espace Coty seront payantes à partir du 2 mars. Au total, cette extension représente 2 000 places de stationnement. G Pierre directeur adjoint des services de la ville du Havre et F Fortere directeur de la voirie justifient cette extension, la dernière promet G Pierre '' En 2005, nous n'avions pas traité toutes les zones, seulement une voie sur deux. L'expérience n'est pas très probante''. Les résidants sont avertis par courrier de ce changement, ils peuvent souscrire un abonnement au tarif préférentiel de 10 euros par mois.
Bonjour M. Migraine,
Laissez-moi vous expliquer le point de vue d'un résident ou la solution d'une rue payante sur deux était en vigueur jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Je vis en centre ville depuis maintenant 8 ans, et, comme la plupart de mes voisins, nous avions appris à vivre avec. Dans la semaine, peu importe ou nous stationnons notre véhicule, puisque parti avant 9H00, et rentrés pour la plupart vers 18H00 ( en ce qui concerne les résidents travaillant sur une commune alentour. Pour ma part, je travaille sur un terminal portuaire, qui n’est desservi par aucun moyen de transport en commun. La voiture est donc une obligation, les deux roues étant dangereux dans de tels lieux ) . Les stationnements qu'ils soient payants ou non, n'ont aucune importance, puisqu'il s'agit de n'y stationner que la nuit. Je ne travaille pas le samedi, et ai quelques jours de RTT par an, sans parler des congés payés, ou mes faibles revenus m'interdisent de partir en vacance.
Pendant toutes ces périodes de non activité, je me débrouillais pour trouver des places gratuites, parfois avec contraintes, mais, mis à part une perte de temps, pas de pénalités financières. Vous constaterez d'ailleurs en vous promenant dans les rues proches de l'espace Coty le soir, que les stationnements payants ou non sont occupés, le secteur étant à la limite de la saturation dans ce domaine. Vous constaterez également la même chose en pleine journée, il est en effet difficile de trouver à se stationner, payant ou non. Partant de ces données, comment rendre toutes ces rues payantes pourront t-elles libérer de la place pour les résidents ? L'argument ne me convainc donc pas.
Lorsque je trouvais une place gratuite un vendredi soir, un samedi, ou tout autre jour de congé, ce qui était plutôt délicat à obtenir, plutôt que d'utiliser mon véhicule pour un déplacement relativement proche, au risque de perdre cette place si durement trouvée, je préférais me déplacer a pied, c'est bon pour ma santé, c'est bon pour mon porte monnaie et c'est bon pour l'environnement. Sachant que ce privilège sera perdu, nous serons moins incités à nous déplacer de la sorte. Argument écologique, donc ? Cela reste à confirmer. En tout cas cette décision ne contribuera pas à encourager à utiliser nos pieds, plutôt que nos véhicules, d'autant plus qu'il sera, selon vos arguments, plus facile de trouver de la place pour les résidentiels.
Cela n'encouragera également pas des personnes non résidentes du Havre à venir nous rendre visite un samedi, par exemple, puisque ceci aura un coût. Comme chacun le sait, le pouvoir d'achat est florissant en ces temps. Merci donc pour cet isolement non souhaité. Je pourrai en revanche aller rendre visite a des personnes non résidentes au Havre, et, si éventuellement quelques achats s'imposent à l'occasion de ces réceptions, ces achats se feront donc hors du Havre. Je pense que les commerçants de mon quartier apprécieront votre mesure à sa juste valeur, surtout si ces réceptions, aussi humbles soient t-elles, en centre ville étaient fréquentes et régulières.
En ce qui concerne la non utilisation des espaces aériens et souterrains, peut-on seulement remettre en cause l'aspect financier de la chose ? Avant même de parler de l'aspect pratique ? Oui, nous n'avons pas tous la chance d'habiter a proximité immédiate de l'un de ces aménagements. Tandis que le bas de la rue, ou la rue d'à coté sont des lieux relativement proches de son domicile. Louer un garage n'est pas à la porté de toutes les bourses (d'autant plus que la présence d'étudiants, qui comme chacun le sait, ont de bonnes ressources financières et très marquée dans ce secteur). Bref, votre tarif préférentiel a 10 EUR/mois pour les résidents sera donc toujours largement plus économique et / ou pratique, qu'un garage ou d'un place en infrastructure aménagée par la municipalité. Comment se fera donc le gain de place pour les résidentiels ? Comment comptez vous nous inciter à faire usage des infrastructures ? Où se trouve le gain pour les résidentiels ?
En ce qui concerne ce fameux tarif préférentiel, qui représentera donc un coût de 120 EUR par an, alors qu’aujourd’hui, mon stationnement ne me coûtait rien. Comment peut on être satisfait d’une telle mesure ?
Partant du principe qu’il ne sera pas possible de passer au travers, ces 120 EUR peuvent donc être assimilés à un complément de la taxe d’habitation. Belle augmentation, d’une taxe déjà douloureuse, mais non remise en cause, du au fait que la ville a connu de nombreuses rénovations, améliorations dernièrement. Cette nouvelle augmentation est toutefois dure à avaler, d’autant plus que je ne pense pas qu’il soit utile d’espérer une quelconque déduction de ces 120 EUR dans notre taxe d’habitation (ce qui pourrait cependant donner du sens a certains de vos arguments).
En ce qui me concerne personnellement, cette mesure est indigeste, à tel point que je pense quitter le centre ville a plus ou moins court terme. C’est dommage, je m’y sentais bien, et la proximité des commerces y jouait un rôle important. Je pense me diriger vers l’un des quartiers dit « cités », ou la vie y sera plus a ma portée, mais moins agréable. Et comme la majeure partie des personnes résidents dans ces quartiers en périphérie de la ville, j’irai donc faire mes achats dans les grandes surfaces qui seront proches. Peut-être est ce là le but recherché, faire partir les résident aux revenus moyens du centre ville, a souhaiter toutefois que ces gens serons replacé par des gens plus aisés….mais quelle personne aisée se contenterai d’un F2 de 35 M2 ? Qui plus est, nul doute qu’il est sain de parquer les personnes à faible revenus ensemble,,nous en avons déjà eu de nombreuses preuves.
Il est enfin possible que je recherche un logement sur une autre commune, auquel cas la commune du Havre perdra ma contribution, payée sous forme de taxe d’habitation.
J’espère être le seul à avoir envisagé cette solution. Je pense également, que, encore une fois les commerçants de proximité vous en remercieront.
En conclusion, je pense qu’il est inutile de s’éterniser davantage sur les bienfaits de votre décision, sans soute mûrement réfléchie, qui n’a donc été prise que pour notre bien. Nous aurons donc qu’à subir ce nouvel impôt, de gré ou de force, ou à partir. Les Havrais qui vous ont élu (dont je faisais partie) vous remercient de votre bienveillance (justifiée par certaines actions, mais dictatoriales pour d’autres d’entres elles). Puissiez-vous parfois vous mettre un peu à leur place, et les écouter de temps en temps, Le Havre est une ville ou il fait bon y vivre, quoiqu’on en dise, mais qui devient de plus en plus hors de portée des bourses de la plupart des Havrais. Quel dommage que Le Havre ne veuille plus de nous !!!
Merci de m’avoir éventuellement lu jusqu'à bout.
Bonjour M. Migraine,
Laissez-moi vous expliquer le point de vue d'un résident ou la solution d'une rue payante sur deux était en vigueur jusqu'à aujourd'hui. Je vis en centre ville depuis maintenant 8 ans, et, comme la plupart de mes voisins, nous avions appris à vivre avec. Dans la semaine, peu importe ou nous stationnons notre véhicule, puisque parti avant 9H00, et rentrés pour la plupart vers 18H00 ( en ce qui concerne les résidents travaillant sur une commune alentour. Pour ma part, je travaille sur un terminal portuaire, qui n’est desservi par aucun moyen de transport en commun. La voiture est donc une obligation, les deux roues étant dangereux dans de tels lieux ) . Les stationnements qu'ils soient payants ou non, n'ont aucune importance, puisqu'il s'agit de n'y stationner que la nuit. Je ne travaille pas le samedi, et ai quelques jours de RTT par an, sans parler des congés payés, ou mes faibles revenus m'interdisent de partir en vacance.
Pendant toutes ces périodes de non activité, je me débrouillais pour trouver des places gratuites, parfois avec contraintes, mais, mis à part une perte de temps, pas de pénalités financières. Vous constaterez d'ailleurs en vous promenant dans les rues proches de l'espace Coty le soir, que les stationnements payants ou non sont occupés, le secteur étant à la limite de la saturation dans ce domaine. Vous constaterez également la même chose en pleine journée, il est en effet difficile de trouver à se stationner, payant ou non. Partant de ces données, comment rendre toutes ces rues payantes pourront t-elles libérer de la place pour les résidents ? L'argument ne me convainc donc pas.
Lorsque je trouvais une place gratuite un vendredi soir, un samedi, ou tout autre jour de congé, ce qui était plutôt délicat à obtenir, plutôt que d'utiliser mon véhicule pour un déplacement relativement proche, au risque de perdre cette place si durement trouvée, je préférais me déplacer a pied, c'est bon pour ma santé, c'est bon pour mon porte monnaie et c'est bon pour l'environnement. Sachant que ce privilège sera perdu, nous serons moins incités à nous déplacer de la sorte. Argument écologique, donc ? Cela reste à confirmer. En tout cas cette décision ne contribuera pas à encourager à utiliser nos pieds, plutôt que nos véhicules, d'autant plus qu'il sera, selon vos arguments, plus facile de trouver de la place pour les résidentiels.
Cela n'encouragera également pas des personnes non résidentes du Havre à venir nous rendre visite un samedi, par exemple, puisque ceci aura un coût. Comme chacun le sait, le pouvoir d'achat est florissant en ces temps. Merci donc pour cet isolement non souhaité. Je pourrai en revanche aller rendre visite a des personnes non résidentes au Havre, et, si éventuellement quelques achats s'imposent à l'occasion de ces réceptions, ces achats se feront donc hors du Havre. Je pense que les commerçants de mon quartier apprécieront votre mesure à sa juste valeur, surtout si ces réceptions, aussi humbles soient t-elles, en centre ville étaient fréquentes et régulières.
En ce qui concerne la non utilisation des espaces aériens et souterrains, peut-on seulement remettre en cause l'aspect financier de la chose ? Avant même de parler de l'aspect pratique ? Oui, nous n'avons pas tous la chance d'habiter a proximité immédiate de l'un de ces aménagements. Tandis que le bas de la rue, ou la rue d'à coté sont des lieux relativement proches de son domicile. Louer un garage n'est pas à la porté de toutes les bourses (d'autant plus que la présence d'étudiants, qui comme chacun le sait, ont de bonnes ressources financières et très marquée dans ce secteur). Bref, votre tarif préférentiel a 10 EUR/mois pour les résidents sera donc toujours largement plus économique et / ou pratique, qu'un garage ou d'un place en infrastructure aménagée par la municipalité. Comment se fera donc le gain de place pour les résidentiels ? Comment comptez vous nous inciter à faire usage des infrastructures ? Où se trouve le gain pour les résidentiels ?
En ce qui concerne ce fameux tarif préférentiel, qui représentera donc un coût de 120 EUR par an, alors qu’aujourd’hui, mon stationnement ne me coûtait rien. Comment peut on être satisfait d’une telle mesure ?
Partant du principe qu’il ne sera pas possible de passer au travers, ces 120 EUR peuvent donc être assimilés à un complément de la taxe d’habitation. Belle augmentation, d’une taxe déjà douloureuse, mais non remise en cause, du au fait que la ville a connu de nombreuses rénovations, améliorations dernièrement. Cette nouvelle augmentation est toutefois dure à avaler, d’autant plus que je ne pense pas qu’il soit utile d’espérer une quelconque déduction de ces 120 EUR dans notre taxe d’habitation (ce qui pourrait cependant donner du sens a certains de vos arguments).
En ce qui me concerne personnellement, cette mesure est indigeste, à tel point que je pense quitter le centre ville a plus ou moins court terme. C’est dommage, je m’y sentais bien, et la proximité des commerces y jouait un rôle important. Je pense me diriger vers l’un des quartiers dit « cités », ou la vie y sera plus a ma portée, mais moins agréable. Et comme la majeure partie des personnes résidents dans ces quartiers en périphérie de la ville, j’irai donc faire mes achats dans les grandes surfaces qui seront proches. Peut-être est ce là le but recherché, faire partir les résident aux revenus moyens du centre ville, a souhaiter toutefois que ces gens serons replacé par des gens plus aisés….mais quelle personne aisée se contenterai d’un F2 de 35 M2 ? Qui plus est, nul doute qu’il est sain de parquer les personnes à faible revenus ensemble,,nous en avons déjà eu de nombreuses preuves.
Il est enfin possible que je recherche un logement sur une autre commune, auquel cas la commune du Havre perdra ma contribution, payée sous forme de taxe d’habitation.
J’espère être le seul à avoir envisagé cette solution. Je pense également, que, encore une fois les commerçants de proximité vous en remercieront.
En conclusion, je pense qu’il est inutile de s’éterniser davantage sur les bienfaits de votre décision, sans soute mûrement réfléchie, qui n’a donc été prise que pour notre bien. Nous aurons donc qu’à subir ce nouvel impôt, de gré ou de force, ou à partir. Les Havrais qui vous ont élu (dont je faisais partie) vous remercient de votre bienveillance (justifiée par certaines actions, mais dictatoriales pour d’autres d’entres elles). Puissiez-vous parfois vous mettre un peu à leur place, et les écouter de temps en temps, Le Havre est une ville ou il fait bon y vivre, quoiqu’on en dise, mais qui devient de plus en plus hors de portée des bourses de la plupart des Havrais. Quel dommage que Le Havre ne veuille plus de nous !!!
Merci de m’avoir éventuellement lu jusqu'à bout.
Ras le bol des taxes déguisées. Je tiens un commerce en centre ville et je dois constater qu'en période de crise la mairie favorise ses propres intérêts plutot que de soutenir son commerce urbain. Je suis curieux de savoir où passe tout cet argent, dans les projets d'aménagement? Des projets il y en plein les tiroirs mais pour l'instant je ne prend toujours pas mon vélo de peur de me faire éclater à chaque coin de rue ! Car pour ce qui est de verbaliser en toute discrétion 10/10, pour ce qui est de la vitesse en ville, là il n'y a plus personne. (trop dur, trop risqué?). Alors cher élus, arrêtez votre hypocrisie, lachez vos petits fours (payés avec mes amendes)et retroussez vos manches ! Car pour moi c'est décidé quelquesoient mes idées politiques mon prochain vote ira à celui qui retablira le stationnement avec ce bon vieux disque en ville.
Ras le bol des taxes déguisées. Je tiens un commerce en centre ville et je dois constater qu'en période de crise la mairie favorise ses propres intérêts plutot que de soutenir son commerce urbain. Je suis curieux de savoir où passe tout cet argent, dans les projets d'aménagement? Des projets il y en plein les tiroirs mais pour l'instant je ne prend toujours pas mon vélo de peur de me faire éclater à chaque coin de rue ! Car pour ce qui est de verbaliser en toute discrétion 10/10, pour ce qui est de la vitesse en ville, là il n'y a plus personne. (trop dur, trop risqué?). Alors cher élus, arrêtez votre hypocrisie, lachez vos petits fours (payés avec mes amendes)et retroussez vos manches ! Car pour moi c'est décidé quelquesoient mes idées politiques mon prochain vote ira à celui qui retablira le stationnement avec ce bon vieux disque en ville.
Ras le bol des taxes déguisées. Je tiens un commerce en centre ville et je dois constater qu'en période de crise la mairie favorise ses propres intérêts plutot que de soutenir son commerce urbain. Je suis curieux de savoir où passe tout cet argent, dans les projets d'aménagement? Des projets il y en plein les tiroirs mais pour l'instant je ne prend toujours pas mon vélo de peur de me faire éclater à chaque coin de rue ! Car pour ce qui est de verbaliser en toute discrétion 10/10, pour ce qui est de la vitesse en ville, là il n'y a plus personne. (trop dur, trop risqué?). Alors cher élus, arrêtez votre hypocrisie, lachez vos petits fours (payés avec mes amendes)et retroussez vos manches ! Car pour moi c'est décidé quelquesoient mes idées politiques mon prochain vote ira à celui qui retablira le stationnement avec ce bon vieux disque en ville.
Ras le bol des taxes déguisées. Je tiens un commerce en centre ville et je dois constater qu'en période de crise la mairie favorise ses propres intérêts plutot que de soutenir son commerce urbain. Je suis curieux de savoir où passe tout cet argent, dans les projets d'aménagement? Des projets il y en plein les tiroirs mais pour l'instant je ne prend toujours pas mon vélo de peur de me faire éclater à chaque coin de rue ! Car pour ce qui est de verbaliser en toute discrétion 10/10, pour ce qui est de la vitesse en ville, là il n'y a plus personne. (trop dur, trop risqué?). Alors cher élus, arrêtez votre hypocrisie, lachez vos petits fours (payés avec mes amendes)et retroussez vos manches ! Car pour moi c'est décidé quelquesoient mes idées politiques mon prochain vote ira à celui qui retablira le stationnement avec ce bon vieux disque en ville.
Comme dit précedemment il faut faire rentrer de l'argent dans les caisses pour faire avancer les projets d'aménagement, normal. Alors pourquoi ne pas aller le chercher là où il est utile à la communauté : les délis routiers : excès de vitesse (boulevard clémenceau, françois 1er,quai lamblardie, stationnements en double file gênant toujours aux mêmes endrois. Là j'ai jamais vu un uniforme. J'accepte de payer lorsque j'ai le pied lourd et que je mets les piétons en danger, par contre je ne suis pas d'accord pour payer lorsque je travaille en centre ville dont j'assure quelquepart l'animation. un excès de vitesse inférieu à 20km/h rapporte autant que 4 absences de titre de stationnement, de 20 à 29 8 absences de titre. Le tout en rendant plus sûr la ville.
Comme dit précedemment il faut faire rentrer de l'argent dans les caisses pour faire avancer les projets d'aménagement, normal. Alors pourquoi ne pas aller le chercher là où il est utile à la communauté : les délis routiers : excès de vitesse (boulevard clémenceau, françois 1er,quai lamblardie, stationnements en double file gênant toujours aux mêmes endrois. Là j'ai jamais vu un uniforme. J'accepte de payer lorsque j'ai le pied lourd et que je mets les piétons en danger, par contre je ne suis pas d'accord pour payer lorsque je travaille en centre ville dont j'assure quelquepart l'animation. un excès de vitesse inférieu à 20km/h rapporte autant que 4 absences de titre de stationnement, de 20 à 29 8 absences de titre. Le tout en rendant plus sûr la ville.
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